Katrina Dialogue
visitors
visitors
The
following is a dialog between Cliff and Amos that was stimulated by Cliff
sending Amos the URL to Bob Hebert’s NY Times column and Cliff's
rant on Katrina Lessons.
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Killed by Contempt - New York Times
Hi
cliff,
I
answered some of your comments in purple below. Let us not turn this into a
pissing contest. As I told you at the outset, the time to point fingers
will come and I reserve judgment until than. My candidate to head the
commission is Senator Breaux (Spelling?). He knows the area and the people and
I trust him to do a fair job.
Amos
Cliff said:
I made more points
than just partisanship:
1.
Require utilities to have immediate backup that can be shared with different
regions.
2.
Train the public to organize in self-help units. There is a story on the
LA Times about tourists who did just that.
3.
Dispatch Navy ships before hurricane landfall. The hospital ship hasn't
arrived yet.
4.
The governor (DEM) should have ordered food stores to provide food.
Everyone who is alive, including tourists, took food and water. Wal-Mart
sent 3 truck-loads of water and FEMA ordered them away. The Coast Guard
came with 1000 gallons of diesel and was ordered away by FEMA. FEMA
disconnected the emergency communications in New Orleans; the sheriff
reconnected them and posted armed guards. The Red Cross came with food and
FEMA (reportedly) ordered them away.
After
the January, 1994 earthquake Clinton ordered immediate aid. The bridges
for the I-10 freeway were fixed in record short time. FEMA was under
DeWitt, who was not a partisan. Michael Brown is. He got his job
through Alspaugh (see today's LA Times).
Now
is the time to point fingers if Brown would let more people die. GOP
Senator Leader Bill Frist seems to agree. He's planning hearings.
Sent:
Sunday, September 04, 2005 11:05 AM
Subject:
Re: Katrina: What to Do/Lessons
Amos
said:
Hindsight
is 20/20.
People
in Louisiana Alabama, Florida and Mississippi were being asked to evacuate
annually and nothing happened. Like the proverbial crying wolf people did not
take heed of the warning. Well, this time something did happened and a lot
of people were caught by surprise mostly the poor who could not flee
even if they wanted. The situation in New Orleans was also aggravated by
the criminal elements of the city who stayed behind to benefit from the expected
mayhem. Where the plans adequate? Probably not, however, they were based on past
experience and no one had experienced the flooding of a city. I'll bet my bottom
dollar that the Clinton administration did not have any better plans.
Unfortunately, everyone who opposes the current administration is trying to use
this disaster for political gain. There is plenty of blame to go around for poor
preparedness but it should not take the political and racial tone that the
media with the support of vocal democrats are perpetuating. Surly the
designated shelters should have been stocked with food, water, medical
supplies communication equipment and power generating equipment. But that was
not part of the plan. The plan was to stage supplies outside the expected
affected area and bring it after the storm passed over. Well that plan as many
plans of mice and men went awry once the levies broke and the city flooded.
I'm not a Democrat or Republican, but I resent people who will affix blame
or praise based on political affiliation. To suggest that failures of
proper planning are the result of a Republican administration as if
anything would have been different under a Democratic administration is bull. There
will be plenty of time to study what went wrong and learn the lessons for the
future. However, now is not the time to point fingers. Now is the time to send
help and rebuild the city and the region instead of trying to gain political
advantage out of the misery of the many.
Amos
In a message dated 9/7/2005 5:43:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, cliff writes:
See Cliff’s rejoinders in bold blue.
Amos’ comments below in Italic Red
In a message dated 9/7/2005 12:43:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, cliff writes:
Do you think Lincoln was wrong to fire McClellan Who was he?
McClellan
was civil war general who Lincoln fired and replace with USS Grant who had git
up and go.
and
Truman was`wrong to fire McCarthur? Yes
and no. He had to assert the civilian authority over the military. However the
electorate punished the Democratic party in the next election.
Bush
should have fired Muller of the FBI.
Should he fire him now that no improvements have been made since 9/11.
and
Tenant.
He is gone. His replacement is not very impressive either at the CIA after 9/11 -- and Condi Rice who said no one could have imagined crashing an airplane into a building. Tom Clancy wrote about it in 1994. Ramsay Usef planned it in 1995. I read the Clancy book and I agree that our intelligence community was too much cold war oriented and lacked imagination. But to blame it on Condi?
Condi Rice said no one could have imagined crashing an airplane into a building. Bush said no one could imagine breeching the dikes.
Amos:
So
what is the point? Officials should not make gaffs? How about Gore
inventing the Internet? Did he really mean it? Besides, I suspect Bush remark
was related to the fact that when the storm veered right and did not hit New
Orleans, no one expected the dikes to fail. Next morning headlines were New
Orleans Dodged the bullet.
Amos:
Come
on. What did Clinton and Albright do when they had the chance to take Osama
out? Told the Saudi prince to leave the camp and expected Osama to stay?
That
didn't happen. They didn't take the shot because the prince was there. That
is right they took the shot after he left. Did they expect Osama to stay? Either
way it was gross negligence that cost many lives since than.
I'm
sure someone is planning a biological attack on the USA right now similar to
another book by Tom Clancy. Any recommendations?
Yes.
Let it be known that we will vaporize Mecca if there is an attack. Another
attack, we vaporize Medina. Further I think we should arrange for the
Jordanians to conquer Saudi Arabia and deny the jihadists the billions we pay
for oil. I
like that solution. Why not go all the way and Inform Iran that the same will
happen to them if they supply terrorists with means of mass destruction?
In
the Navy, if your ship runs aground or smashes a dock, the captain is relieved
of duty. Same in business but in politics there are different standards. I do not
hear any calls to relive the mayor or the governor.
Actually,
not the same in business. I've seen failures get bigger better jobs.
Maybe
you should call for impeaching the governor. I
asked that question below, However, I do not believe the citizens of Louisiana
should do that until they hear all the facts
In the Bush administration bungling gets medals of freedom. I did not see JFK firing RFK after the Bay of Pigs.
It
was JFK's idea. I do not recall anyone asking for his impeachment
I
did not see Johnson firing McNamara over Vietnam.
Vietnam
was Johnson's idea. I do not recall anyone asking for his impeachment.
I
did not see Carter firing Vance over the embassy debacle.
What
debacle? Read
your own solution to the next attack. Carter and Vance should have given Iran an
ultimatum the day after the embassy was taken over. "release the people or
else...."
I
did not see Clinton firing Janet Reno over the FBI bumbling.
Clinton
fired his Sec Dev over Somalia. Good for him. Was it done immediately as consequence
of Somalia or did he resign later on?
It
works both ways.
See Cliff’s bolded comments below:
Hi Cliff,
Amos: Thanks for the complement. I was criticizing the article. You may think that some people should be fired immediately and that is an opinion held by many who are frustrated about the events in New Orleans. I do not share this opinion. Creating vacancies in the middle of an operation will not help the situation on the ground.
As to the facts, well, all we know is that there were problems in the responding to the disaster. They were on three levels namely; Local, State and Federal. Here are some of the problems, none of which, in my opinion, were racially or politically motivated.
Local:
1. Mandatory evacuation was not ordered. Yes, Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation order.
Amos: To my knowledge it was not mandatory.
Cliff: See: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/?section=cnn_topstories Read the rest of my comment regarding the actions one should take to implement a mandatory evacuation when one is declared.
Monday, August 29, 2005; Posted: 12:10 a.m. EDT (04:10 GMT)
NEW
ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- New Orleans braced for a catastrophic blow from
Hurricane Katrina overnight, as forecasters predicted the Category 5 storm could
drive a wall of water over the city's levees.
The
huge storm, packing 160 mph winds, is expected to hit the northern Gulf Coast in
the next nine hours and make landfall as a Category 4 or 5 hurricanes Monday
morning.
The
National Hurricane Center reports that conditions are already deteriorating
along the central and northeastern coast. (Watch
video to see the worst case scenario)
New
Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered
a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch
video of mayor's announcement)
If
it was, he should have used the police, the fireman and the buses to affect it.
All he did was ask people to leave and told those who could not leave to go to
the Superdome without making any arrangement for a stay beyond an overnight
stay.
His
order saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
His
order saved nobody. Those who wanted to leave left on their own volition. Not
because they were ordered. Every interview I heard the people claimed that the
listen to the news on Radio and TV and made up their mind to leave. Those who
stayed were not saved by any action he has taken. As a matter of fact some died
because of inaction on his part (people at the convention center did not have
any support. Who sent them there?). He had the opportunity to be a great Mayor.
He had the chance to show leadership and he blew it. He was correct to
complain about too many officials posturing in front of the cameras shedding
crocodile tears (my words). He is doing better now but too little too late.
2. Local buses were not used to evacuate the elderly, disable and the poor before the storm.
Cliff: You're right, their are 200 yellow school buses under water in neat rows.
3. Evacuation centers were not supplied with the necessary material
4. Large number of First responders left their posts.
Cliff:
The
mayor muffed it. Should
he be fired/ impeached now or should we wait for the next election?
State
1. No Mandatory evacuation until two days after the storm
2. No pre-positioning of emergency supplies in the city
3. No early mobilization of the National Guard
4. No dispatch of the National Guard into the city on the morning after (If reporters could get into the city, why not the national guard)
The
Governor muffed it. Should she be fired/impeached now or should we wait for the
next election
Federal
1. Poor planning by FEMA
2. Poor communication/coordination with state and Local Authorities
3. Late response by the armed forces. (Should they have waited for the state to request it?)
The LHA's should have been sent in behind the storm. FEMA should have allowed Wal-Mart to deliver water and the Red Cross to deliver food.
Amos: Listening to the head of the Red Cross it was the state emergency authorities (not FEMA) that did not let them into New Orleans, claiming that it was not safe and their (the state) first priority is evacuation.
Cliff:
Can
you document this? I listened to one
interview that she gave to one of the cable news TV. I do not keep clips of
cable news, but I'm sure you will be able to find it. Did I hear her wrong? When
asked about the Red Cross not going into New Orleans She responded by stating
that Red Cross are not first responders (Correct statement) and I'm sure
she also said that the State emergency authorities prevented the Red Cross from
going in. Check it out.
Amos:
I
suspect the same people stopped Wal-Mart.
Cliff: FEMA stopped Wal-Mart.
Amos:
FEMA is an element of our homeland security organization, which is a
camel design by a committee. You can thank Liberman for that. FEMA blew it, No
question about it. How much of the blame should rest on their shoulders is yet
to be determined. As I said before, Now is the time to help the injured, the
poor, the displaced and the hungry. Now is the time to clean the place and start
to rebuild it. There will be plenty of time for recriminations downstream.
Cliff:
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/
> >
> > Excerpt from "Meet the Press" interview of the Jefferson
Parish
President
> > Broussard. Full transcript below.
> >
> > "Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart
deliver
three
> > trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back.
They
> > said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we
had 1,000
> > gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish.
The
> > Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When
we got there
with
> > our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the
fuel."
> > Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency
> > communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff,
Harry
> > Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on
our
> > line and says, "No one is getting near these lines."
Sheriff Harry Lee
> > said that if America--American government would have responded like
> > Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis."
> >
Amos:
As
to the LHA, They were on station waiting for orders. Why the orders did not come
I do not know. I suspect it was a case of jurisdiction mambo jumbo between
the State and Federal. Current law leaves it to the state to request for troops.
This must be modified in view of what happened.
Cliff: Bush had the assets. He should have called the Governors of Louisiana
Amos: We know that he declared the area as a disaster zone before the storm hit in order to free FEMA to set up the logistic support. He also called the Governor before the storm hit the area and asked her to order evacuation. I do not have a transcript of the call to verify what he offered in way of help. Did he offer the military? I suspect he did. However, our laws required the state to request the help. If you think it is wrong - change the law.
Cliff: and Mississippi and said I've got LHA's, C5-A's, the 101st Airborne. Do you want them? He didn't.
Amos:
Are you sure? Can you document it? According to
Rumsfeld (I know he is one of the hated gang) the Navy pre-positioned itself
before the storm hit New Orleans. Should he or Bush order the Navy and the Army
to go into New Orleans on Monday? Should he ignore State Rights? Did Blanko have
any problems in mobilizing the National Guard? Why wasn't the guard in New
Orleans the next day? When we have riots in out cities the National Guard is
called in before the state asks for federal help. What was happening there on
Monday and Tuesday?
Amos: Now, each one of these authorities will have their excuses and point the fingers at one each other. However, I do not think this is the time to conduct an inquiry. There will be plenty of time when the dust is settled. My main objection to the article was for playing politics by introducing the race card. This is inflammatory, wrong and unwarranted.
Cliff: Well, with all the poor blacks moved out of New Orleans, you can expect to elect republican governors and senators. Carl Rove couldn't be happier.
Amos: I could not care less about Carl Rove. His job was done. Bush was elected. Move on.
Carl
Rove is a senior official in the White House. Bush makes no move without
consulting him. So now Carl Rove is responsible for the debacle. Come on, the election
is over and Jed Bush is not likely to run in 2008. Besides, Hillary is too smart
to be trapped by the far left as Gore and Kerry did.
When the Bush campaign announces that the Democrats ignore the blacks and don't deserve their votes, is that not playing the race card? No, it is stating a fact.
I
have a phrase: Ignore, deny, justify. You're in the deny phase. You must be joking. Democrats have been in denial since Al Gore
lost the election.
Clifford W. Lazar email a Comment
Los Angeles, CA USA
9/9/05
Lessons from Katrina. Hurricane clean up Failure to act using the military